Review of The Phantom Menace!!!

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: Review of The Phantom Menace!!!

Post by bowspearer on Wed Apr 07, 2010 10:47 pm

The Dr Of Style wrote:I've said before at some point that one of the problems I had with the new ones were that they were different types of movies. more kids adventure stuff like "shenanigans in the robot factory" c3po's head swapping bodies etc............movies with characters to sell merchandise as opposed to movies with characters...the whole Gungan race seemed to be there to appeal to kids.... anyway I'll eventually watch the vid

Again though that's individual subplots rather than the main arc of Palpatine's rise to Emperor. I know it's also about Anakin, but really like all war stories you have you character focus subplots or main plots set against the arc of a far more reaching backdrop which is in and of itself a main plot.

The problem with saying the movies had absolutely no story is like looking at a WW2 movie you didn't like and claiming that there was absolutely no story to WW2. Sure certain plot elements might not be to peoples' likings and some sub-plots and characters might not work, but really, the overarching story is still there and there in a way that does Palpatine justice as the master political manipulator and intrigue-maker.

Does it mean that individually that overarching plot of each movie makes no sense sure, but the same could be said of any political intrigue story you only watch a third of the way into or only watch the middle third of. However when you watch all three movies together, the continuity of the overarching plot works and you see everything in its proper context as the brilliant scheme it is.

So many people who brutally pan the PT seem incapable of grasping this.

bowspearer
Kickin' it old skool

Number of posts : 242
Age : 37
Location : Anywhere but here.
Trading Status : 3
Registration date : 2010-01-28

View user profile http://z7.invisionfree.com/Kickin_It_Old_School/index.php?

Back to top Go down

Re: Review of The Phantom Menace!!!

Post by simmo on Thu Apr 08, 2010 1:05 am

I think you're wrong on the intended journey of the prequels in relation to the OT. The OT was about the redemption of Anakin...the Prequels were about the fall of Anakin.

The political flim-flam was the part that slowed the three prequels down. It was the action that lead to the fall of Anakin that should have been the focus all along. And it wasn't, because Lucas began writing the prequels as a reaction against the Republican party in the US.

The difference (politically) between the two trilogies was that the first was a celebration of the American victory over British (Empirical) tyranny...a plot where you can hang character development onto it. The second plot of Evil Republicans taking over didn't lead to having fruitful character development.

In short, Lucas is not a good enough writer to make political intrigue work. He can make an Avatar-esque story work, but not something deeper.

simmo
Fap Happy Daffy

Number of posts : 998
Age : 37
Location : Sydney
Trading Status : 55
Registration date : 2008-02-15

View user profile http://ozfigurama.bigforumpro.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Review of The Phantom Menace!!!

Post by bowspearer on Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:02 am

simmo wrote:I think you're wrong on the intended journey of the prequels in relation to the OT. The OT was about the redemption of Anakin...the Prequels were about the fall of Anakin.

And yet you can't tell the story of the fall of Anakin without also telling the story of the rise of Palpatine. Like I said before, Anakin's story is your main in character focus story, but it's set against the

simmo wrote:The political flim-flam was the part that slowed the three prequels down. It was the action that lead to the fall of Anakin that should have been the focus all along. And it wasn't, because Lucas began writing the prequels as a reaction against the Republican party in the US.

Except that the skeleton notion of Palpatine rising to power through underhanded means and subverting Anakin has always been there, going back at least as far as the early 90s (I'd been holding out for the Mustafar duel ever since 1992 when I first got SWSE for my 486DX33). Maybe he used what was happening with the Republican Party as a backdrop for it (although when TPM was first penned it was only a year into Clinton's 2nd term), but really that isn't a bad thing.

What started with the Republicans in the US has alot of parallels with how the Palpatine would have risen to power no matter who penned the transition- the use of private armies ("subcontractors"), the patriot act and the teaching at FEMA that the Founding Fathers were all terrorists (and thus that the US constitution is the work of terrorists), just to name a few things.

Maybe it did double as a political statement, but it was always going to do that regarding any regime that fit that profile roughly, and the notion of drawing on totalitarianism usurping a nation with such a strong constitution of democracy is actually just him being as good a study of politics as he was of Joseph Campbell.

simmo wrote:The difference (politically) between the two trilogies was that the first was a celebration of the American victory over British (Empirical) tyranny...a plot where you can hang character development onto it. The second plot of Evil Republicans taking over didn't lead to having fruitful character development.

I'm well aware of the differences between the two, but the thing is that those differences were always going to be there. As of that first time Luke asks about his father in ANH there was always going to be this situation of this great society that stood for thousands of years being torn apart by the rise of a dictator, who 20 years from then was suddenly on the road to being overturned by "the everyman".

As much as people hate the PT what it did was necessary in order to set up the premise of the OT at the start of ANH.

simmo wrote:In short, Lucas is not a good enough writer to make political intrigue work. He can make an Avatar-esque story work, but not something deeper.

Except that it did work. This wasn't a plot that was quickly executed and planned in a relatively short stage with only 1 or a couple of phases taking place in fairly short time; this was a long term, incredible well planned out plot with mutliple contingency plans designed to ensure that not only would order 66 become a reality, but that when it would be used, he would be unchallenged in making sweeping and draconian reforms in a position of absolute power and would not only be unopposed, but widely supported.

Now maybe you weren't a fan of how that played out, and that's fine as we all have different tastes. Yet at the same time there's a difference between not liking a plot and claiming that it's somehow non-existent like some people have done.

bowspearer
Kickin' it old skool

Number of posts : 242
Age : 37
Location : Anywhere but here.
Trading Status : 3
Registration date : 2010-01-28

View user profile http://z7.invisionfree.com/Kickin_It_Old_School/index.php?

Back to top Go down

Re: Review of The Phantom Menace!!!

Post by TheSweetestThing on Thu Apr 08, 2010 4:17 am

I agree with simmo on the plot thing. Watching a properly developed Anakin downfall would have been a lot more interesting than all the political crap that went in it. Also could have just sat Palpatine off to the side and made that a very humble sub plot.
My main irritation with the PT (and as I said before, I do like it, but its not as good as it could have been) is that Anakin was a little whiny bitch. Thanks Hayden Christensen, and thanks George for that.

As a big fan of the Anakin/Padme romance in EP2, and of Padme in EP2 as well, I couldn't stand that almost his entire downfall was based on her and his developing feelings over the situation in EP3.

Also, was it just me or was Padme suddenly really spaz and unattractive in EP3? I was devastated when I walked out of the theatre afterwards! Razz

TheSweetestThing
Only bows down for Droothr

Number of posts : 1536
Age : 28
Location : Central Coast
Trading Status : 40
Registration date : 2008-03-17

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Review of The Phantom Menace!!!

Post by Dabigfella on Thu Apr 08, 2010 5:07 am

I've said it before and i'll say it again, i am a movie sellers dream, a movie has to be REALLY bad or nothing to do with what i like for me not to enjoy it. I watched ep 1 when i was 22 and i loved it, still do, in fact i love every episode of star wars, and you know what, i can't tell you why....

Dabigfella
Mr Motu

Number of posts : 2344
Age : 39
Trading Status : 101
Registration date : 2008-02-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Review of The Phantom Menace!!!

Post by the dirty digger on Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:15 am

Dabigfella wrote: i love every episode of star wars, and you know what, i can't tell you why....

Coz it's cool! Cool

the dirty digger
Saving the world...one MILF at a time

Number of posts : 353
Age : 93
Location : Melbourne
Trading Status : 1
Registration date : 2009-02-08

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Review of The Phantom Menace!!!

Post by ragericho on Thu Apr 08, 2010 10:23 am

Dabigfella wrote:I've said it before and i'll say it again, i am a movie sellers dream, a movie has to be REALLY bad or nothing to do with what i like for me not to enjoy it. I watched ep 1 when i was 22 and i loved it, still do, in fact i love every episode of star wars, and you know what, i can't tell you why....

Thats because there not real bad movies just fun to watch, The Legend of Chun-Li on the other hand Twisted Evil

ragericho
Loves (and I mean loves) his vegetables

Number of posts : 1244
Age : 35
Location : QLD
Trading Status : 30
Registration date : 2008-03-09

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Review of The Phantom Menace!!!

Post by bowspearer on Thu Apr 08, 2010 7:16 pm

TheSweetestThing wrote:I agree with simmo on the plot thing. Watching a properly developed Anakin downfall would have been a lot more interesting than all the political crap that went in it. Also could have just sat Palpatine off to the side and made that a very humble sub plot.

But that's like trying to nail jelly to a tree. You're talking not just about Palpatine's rise to power but Anakin's fall from grace into his right-hand man. There's no way you can properly tell the story without giving it the focal point it has. At the same time though look, if you look at things like the subplot with Shmi for example, they did completely push it aside and the story became very personal.

TheSweetestThing wrote:My main irritation with the PT (and as I said before, I do like it, but its not as good as it could have been) is that Anakin was a little whiny bitch. Thanks Hayden Christensen, and thanks George for that.

As a big fan of the Anakin/Padme romance in EP2, and of Padme in EP2 as well, I couldn't stand that almost his entire downfall was based on her and his developing feelings over the situation in EP3.

Also, was it just me or was Padme suddenly really spaz and unattractive in EP3? I was devastated when I walked out of the theatre afterwards! Razz

I agree that Hayden Christensen's performance was hit and miss, but that seems to be a case of someone unqualified lying their way through a job interview then royally screwing up on the job.

Lucas was originally after someone dark and brooding, like James Dean and had he gotten it, then you would have seen a very different story. Yet sadly, we all got Whieykin Skytantrum. At the same time though considering what happened to the character in parts of AOTC what we saw in parts of it was very realistic in Hayden's portrayal.

But that's the thing, if people want to criticise how somethings were executed then it's one thing, but the claims of zero storyline altogether really are something else entirely and do very little for the credibility of the people making them.

bowspearer
Kickin' it old skool

Number of posts : 242
Age : 37
Location : Anywhere but here.
Trading Status : 3
Registration date : 2010-01-28

View user profile http://z7.invisionfree.com/Kickin_It_Old_School/index.php?

Back to top Go down

Re: Review of The Phantom Menace!!!

Post by TheSweetestThing on Fri Apr 09, 2010 2:48 am

bowspearer wrote:

But that's like trying to nail jelly to a tree. You're talking not just about Palpatine's rise to power but Anakin's fall from grace into his right-hand man. There's no way you can properly tell the story without giving it the focal point it has. At the same time though look, if you look at things like the subplot with Shmi for example, they did completely push it aside and the story became very personal.

I understand that but really, how much of the PT was centered around Anakin's downfall? Not enough, and that is exactly my point. All of the politics could have been toned down thoroughly in order to achieve an end result that has Palpy in the top spot.
I get that the PT, like the OT, had a very well thought out and developed storyline, but the OT's was all about Luke and him becoming a Jedi. The PT's was all about the political rubbish that Palpy orchestrated in order to get to the top, and Anakin's struggle was given a back seat.
Seeing as the basis of the entire saga was supposed to be about Anakin/the Skywalkers, it seemed incredibly disconnected.
Basically my main issue was that I like Star Wars because it's awesome, but in real life, I fookin' hate politics and anything remotely resembling it - and that is why the PT sucked. If I wanted political agendas, voting and stupidity among the masses, I'd tune into what is going on in my country and across the world.


bowspearer wrote:

I agree that Hayden Christensen's performance was hit and miss, but that seems to be a case of someone unqualified lying their way through a job interview then royally screwing up on the job.

Lucas was originally after someone dark and brooding, like James Dean and had he gotten it, then you would have seen a very different story. Yet sadly, we all got Whieykin Skytantrum. At the same time though considering what happened to the character in parts of AOTC what we saw in parts of it was very realistic in Hayden's portrayal.

But that's the thing, if people want to criticise how somethings were executed then it's one thing, but the claims of zero storyline altogether really are something else entirely and do very little for the credibility of the people making them.

I was just voicing my opinion on how annoying he is. Hell, I was just voicing my opinion on the whole lot. Didja miss the part where I said I like the movies? It was lost somewhere between you and TheGoodDr arguing over the plot and etc.

TheSweetestThing
Only bows down for Droothr

Number of posts : 1536
Age : 28
Location : Central Coast
Trading Status : 40
Registration date : 2008-03-17

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Review of The Phantom Menace!!!

Post by DroothR on Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:12 am

There's plenty I could say in regards to the discussion going on here, but I'll just touch on one topic for now.

Hayden's performance was EXACTLY what Lucas wanted.

Christensen is a pretty decent actor, and he's gone on record to say (after filming Episode II) that George kept pushing him to go past subtle acting, and wanted more and more over the top takes.

George knew what he was getting with Jake Lloyd, and he knew what he wanted out of Hayden Christensen.

This is a case of a director not knowing anything about acting, or actors (Harrison Ford, Lucas' friend has said this himself), and it affecting the performances in his films.

The main reason the OT had better acting is that when filming A New Hope, George wasn't the immaculate idol that he's viewed as today, so the actors would stand up to him and tell him how they could best do the scene (from the acting stand point), and in the two sequels there were better directors helping the acting talent shine.

I'm not a Lucas hater, but when it comes to directing actors, he's as clueless as he is as a dialogue writer.

DroothR
Dark Denizen of Bleak City

Number of posts : 1511
Age : 34
Location : Melbourne, Australia
Trading Status : 24
Registration date : 2008-03-09

View user profile http://droothr.deviantart.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Review of The Phantom Menace!!!

Post by simmo on Fri Apr 09, 2010 3:23 am

bowspearer wrote:
I agree that Hayden Christensen's performance was hit and miss, but that seems to be a case of someone unqualified lying their way through a job interview then royally screwing up on the job.

Lucas was originally after someone dark and brooding, like James Dean and had he gotten it, then you would have seen a very different story.

You can't lie in an audition mate. This aspect is 100% Lucas' fault. There are three points in the process where Lucas had the chance to improve his Anakin. 1) at the audition/screen test, 2) during rehearsals and the initial shoot, where the director should, amongst everything else, direct the actor, or 3) by canning the actor after the first few daily rushes show that he's inadequate.

Christensen should never have been placed in that position.

(And in writing this, I see that Droothr is saying similar things)

simmo
Fap Happy Daffy

Number of posts : 998
Age : 37
Location : Sydney
Trading Status : 55
Registration date : 2008-02-15

View user profile http://ozfigurama.bigforumpro.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Review of The Phantom Menace!!!

Post by bowspearer on Fri Apr 09, 2010 10:00 am

TheSweetestThing wrote:
bowspearer wrote:

But that's like trying to nail jelly to a tree. You're talking not just about Palpatine's rise to power but Anakin's fall from grace into his right-hand man. There's no way you can properly tell the story without giving it the focal point it has. At the same time though look, if you look at things like the subplot with Shmi for example, they did completely push it aside and the story became very personal.

I understand that but really, how much of the PT was centered around Anakin's downfall? Not enough, and that is exactly my point. All of the politics could have been toned down thoroughly in order to achieve an end result that has Palpy in the top spot.
I get that the PT, like the OT, had a very well thought out and developed storyline, but the OT's was all about Luke and him becoming a Jedi. The PT's was all about the political rubbish that Palpy orchestrated in order to get to the top, and Anakin's struggle was given a back seat.
Seeing as the basis of the entire saga was supposed to be about Anakin/the Skywalkers, it seemed incredibly disconnected.
Basically my main issue was that I like Star Wars because it's awesome, but in real life, I fookin' hate politics and anything remotely resembling it - and that is why the PT sucked. If I wanted political agendas, voting and stupidity among the masses, I'd tune into what is going on in my country and across the world.


And yet the entirety of the Star Wars Saga is political. The OT was the story of a political uprising when Palpatine has free reign and is tyranical. The only reason it wasn't as overt is because like with all repressionist regimes, dissidents were detained or shot on sight- so alot of the action is not only them acting but also being on the run. If you were going into the PT not expecting it to be set against the background of a political coup where the focal character is in a very close relationship with the overthrowing dictator and so they're directly tied into said coup, then no offense, but you're really not going into see it with your eyes wide open.

TheSweetestThing wrote:
bowspearer wrote:

I agree that Hayden Christensen's performance was hit and miss, but that seems to be a case of someone unqualified lying their way through a job interview then royally screwing up on the job.

Lucas was originally after someone dark and brooding, like James Dean and had he gotten it, then you would have seen a very different story. Yet sadly, we all got Whieykin Skytantrum. At the same time though considering what happened to the character in parts of AOTC what we saw in parts of it was very realistic in Hayden's portrayal.

But that's the thing, if people want to criticise how somethings were executed then it's one thing, but the claims of zero storyline altogether really are something else entirely and do very little for the credibility of the people making them.

I was just voicing my opinion on how annoying he is. Hell, I was just voicing my opinion on the whole lot. Didja miss the part where I said I like the movies? It was lost somewhere between you and TheGoodDr arguing over the plot and etc.

You might want to take note of the following:

bowspearer wrote:But that's the thing, if people want to criticise how somethings were executed then it's one thing, but the claims of zero storyline altogether really are something else entirely and do very little for the credibility of the people making them.

So clearly I was making a general comment and not a comment directed at you Wink

DroothR wrote:There's plenty I could say in regards to the discussion going on here, but I'll just touch on one topic for now.

Hayden's performance was EXACTLY what Lucas wanted.

Christensen is a pretty decent actor, and he's gone on record to say (after filming Episode II) that George kept pushing him to go past subtle acting, and wanted more and more over the top takes.

George knew what he was getting with Jake Lloyd, and he knew what he wanted out of Hayden Christensen.

This is a case of a director not knowing anything about acting, or actors (Harrison Ford, Lucas' friend has said this himself), and it affecting the performances in his films.

The main reason the OT had better acting is that when filming A New Hope, George wasn't the immaculate idol that he's viewed as today, so the actors would stand up to him and tell him how they could best do the scene (from the acting stand point), and in the two sequels there were better directors helping the acting talent shine.

I'm not a Lucas hater, but when it comes to directing actors, he's as clueless as he is as a dialogue writer.

And yet he's also gone on record saying that he was after a sullen, James Dean type, so I'm not sure it was a case of Lucas getting what he wanted so much as not knowing what he wanted. I've also heard Harrison Ford say that he doesn't work so well with actors.

But then at the same time, while parts of his performance were bad, the whole Shmi sub-plot and in the immediate aftermath of it were entirely realistic and believable, considering the guilt he felt, the pressures on him and even just being a 17 year old kid who's just lost their mother.

Also to be honest, his dialogue does manage to work alot of the time, so you can't comprehensively pan his dialogue writing skills either, especially in light of some of what was said about the work they produced in the OT.

I'd address what Simmo said, but that's also been covered here.

Ultimately though to get back to the main issue, certainly parts of the execution weren't the best thought through, and I agree some parts of the movies definitely needed to be reshot because of the failed execution in them. However to attack the core storyline as a whole with claims like their being no story whatsoever or absolutely no coherency to the story when the core storyline was so ingeniously crafted, is nothing short of ludicrous and baseless.

bowspearer
Kickin' it old skool

Number of posts : 242
Age : 37
Location : Anywhere but here.
Trading Status : 3
Registration date : 2010-01-28

View user profile http://z7.invisionfree.com/Kickin_It_Old_School/index.php?

Back to top Go down

Re: Review of The Phantom Menace!!!

Post by BoloMusashi on Fri Apr 09, 2010 5:51 pm

DroothR wrote:
I'm not a Lucas hater, but when it comes to directing actors, he's as clueless as he is as a dialogue writer.

IMO he's always been an ideas man rather than a director.

BoloMusashi
Man I'm Dumb

Number of posts : 1508
Age : 38
Location : Perth, WA
Trading Status : 105
Registration date : 2008-03-07

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Review of The Phantom Menace!!!

Post by DroothR on Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:53 am

BoloMusashi wrote:
DroothR wrote:
I'm not a Lucas hater, but when it comes to directing actors, he's as clueless as he is as a dialogue writer.

IMO he's always been an ideas man rather than a director.
Bingo.

That's why Empire was so damned good.

A real character driven director working with actors to filter George's ideas into something that works on EVERY level, beyond just being an interesting premise.

DroothR
Dark Denizen of Bleak City

Number of posts : 1511
Age : 34
Location : Melbourne, Australia
Trading Status : 24
Registration date : 2008-03-09

View user profile http://droothr.deviantart.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Review of The Phantom Menace!!!

Post by TheSweetestThing on Sat Apr 10, 2010 5:19 am

bowspearer wrote: If you were going into the PT not expecting it to be set against the background of a political coup where the focal character is in a very close relationship with the overthrowing dictator and so they're directly tied into said coup, then no offense, but you're really not going into see it with your eyes wide open.

Pretty much all I need to say here is this:

TheSweetestThing wrote: I watched Episode I as an 11 year old.

And that was an 11 year old that went and saw it at the movies in '99 when it came out.



That aside, I think everyone else's points on Lucas' inability to direct is pretty spot on, now that I think about it. Reason why I blamed whiny Hayden is because I've only ever seen him in one other movie, and he was equally as whiny and annoying. Kinda gives me the idea that I don't want to watch him in movies anymore.

TheSweetestThing
Only bows down for Droothr

Number of posts : 1536
Age : 28
Location : Central Coast
Trading Status : 40
Registration date : 2008-03-17

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Review of The Phantom Menace!!!

Post by bowspearer on Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:36 pm

DroothR wrote:
BoloMusashi wrote:
DroothR wrote:
I'm not a Lucas hater, but when it comes to directing actors, he's as clueless as he is as a dialogue writer.

IMO he's always been an ideas man rather than a director.
Bingo.

That's why Empire was so damned good.

A real character driven director working with actors to filter George's ideas into something that works on EVERY level, beyond just being an interesting premise.

But again, he is an extremely good writer as well. Everyone who praises Kasdan seems to forget that this was the same Kasdan who would have killed off one of the main characters, most likely Han Solo, had Lucas not knocked the idea on the head.

But again this is the problem in general with Star Wars fans, so many of them out there who pan the PT confuse directorial execution with the script itself.

bowspearer
Kickin' it old skool

Number of posts : 242
Age : 37
Location : Anywhere but here.
Trading Status : 3
Registration date : 2010-01-28

View user profile http://z7.invisionfree.com/Kickin_It_Old_School/index.php?

Back to top Go down

Re: Review of The Phantom Menace!!!

Post by DroothR on Sun Apr 11, 2010 5:05 am

bowspearer wrote:
DroothR wrote:
BoloMusashi wrote:
DroothR wrote:
I'm not a Lucas hater, but when it comes to directing actors, he's as clueless as he is as a dialogue writer.

IMO he's always been an ideas man rather than a director.
Bingo.

That's why Empire was so damned good.

A real character driven director working with actors to filter George's ideas into something that works on EVERY level, beyond just being an interesting premise.

But again, he is an extremely good writer as well. Everyone who praises Kasdan seems to forget that this was the same Kasdan who would have killed off one of the main characters, most likely Han Solo, had Lucas not knocked the idea on the head.

But again this is the problem in general with Star Wars fans, so many of them out there who pan the PT confuse directorial execution with the script itself.
No, it's you who seems to be confused. Neutral

I was talking about acting, performance, and audience connection. Not scriptwriting.

Irvin Kirshner is solely responsible for bringing out the best performances of the entire series.

But while we're on the topic, it WOULD have added more drama to Jedi if one of the main characters died.

DroothR
Dark Denizen of Bleak City

Number of posts : 1511
Age : 34
Location : Melbourne, Australia
Trading Status : 24
Registration date : 2008-03-09

View user profile http://droothr.deviantart.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Review of The Phantom Menace!!!

Post by NiteOwl on Sun Apr 11, 2010 7:48 am

It was actually Harrison Ford who came up with the idea to kill off Han Solo. Lucas' reply was something like "this is the eighties and we can't go killing off any characters" I'm only para phrasing it's in Skywalking, the life and times of George Lucas by Dale Pollock. Yes, I am a massive Star Wars nerd as well.

NiteOwl
The Goggles Do Nuthing!

Number of posts : 1337
Age : 41
Location : Central Coast, NSW
Trading Status : 24
Registration date : 2008-03-16

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Review of The Phantom Menace!!!

Post by bowspearer on Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:26 am

DroothR wrote:No, it's you who seems to be confused. Neutral

Not at all, I was referring to these kinds of panning comments:

TheGoodDr wrote:The stories make no sense

TheGoodDr wrote:No, there is NO story in the first 2...especially the first film.

I agree that execution based criticisms are completely fair and was completely aware of what you were discussing, but the above kinds of comments which have formed the core of this discussion, are nothing short of ludicrous.

DroothR wrote:I was talking about acting, performance, and audience connection. Not scriptwriting.

Irvin Kirshner is solely responsible for bringing out the best performances of the entire series.

Except that when people start panning the PT while exalting ESB on the grounds of story, they're talking about Kasdan, not Kirshner.

DroothR wrote:But while we're on the topic, it WOULD have added more drama to Jedi if one of the main characters died.

Which it honestly didn't need, considering the style of film and what had made it work so well against its contemporaries- in this case more dark drama is not necessarily a good thing.

NiteOwl wrote:It was actually Harrison Ford who came up with the idea to kill off Han Solo. Lucas' reply was something like "this is the eighties and we can't go killing off any characters" I'm only para phrasing it's in Skywalking, the life and times of George Lucas by Dale Pollock. Yes, I am a massive Star Wars nerd as well.

Hence why I said "most likely". Had Kasdan been able to do it, Harrison wanting Han to be the one would have then become another factor and considering how everyone was in the wake of ESB, would probably have wound up being what would have happened.

The thing on those grounds which I think alot of people forget though is the type of films which came out as contemporaries to Star Wars. If more dark drama was what made Star Wars so successful and what was what worked for the time, Lucas would have cast Charles Bronson in the role of Luke Skywalker.

bowspearer
Kickin' it old skool

Number of posts : 242
Age : 37
Location : Anywhere but here.
Trading Status : 3
Registration date : 2010-01-28

View user profile http://z7.invisionfree.com/Kickin_It_Old_School/index.php?

Back to top Go down

Re: Review of The Phantom Menace!!!

Post by TheGoodDr on Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:05 am

And I stand by those comments.....particularly that the stories for Ep I and II make no sense. You bang on all you like about them being part of a bigger picture but a movie needs to stand up on its own. Universally these two films are bemoaned by fans and movie makers alike.

TheGoodDr
Lance Corporal in the Kiss Army

Number of posts : 1187
Age : 105
Location : WA
Trading Status : 100
Registration date : 2008-04-23

View user profile http://www.FiguresDirect.com.au

Back to top Go down

Re: Review of The Phantom Menace!!!

Post by bowspearer on Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:45 pm

TheGoodDr wrote:And I stand by those comments.....particularly that the stories for Ep I and II make no sense. You bang on all you like about them being part of a bigger picture but a movie needs to stand up on its own.


By that logic, all three of the Lord of the Rings movies were abysmal failures.

TheGoodDr wrote:Universally these two films are bemoaned by fans and movie makers alike.

Which only proves how unintelligent the world is becoming.

bowspearer
Kickin' it old skool

Number of posts : 242
Age : 37
Location : Anywhere but here.
Trading Status : 3
Registration date : 2010-01-28

View user profile http://z7.invisionfree.com/Kickin_It_Old_School/index.php?

Back to top Go down

Re: Review of The Phantom Menace!!!

Post by DroothR on Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:11 pm

Exclamation Alright, I'm putting on my Moderator hat now, and declaring this discussion over.

This is veering from discussion about - and stemming from - some pieces of elaborately constructed critique, to borderline trolling.

Further discussion in this thread should remain on the topic of the videos posted by Red Letter Media only from this point on.

DroothR
Dark Denizen of Bleak City

Number of posts : 1511
Age : 34
Location : Melbourne, Australia
Trading Status : 24
Registration date : 2008-03-09

View user profile http://droothr.deviantart.com/

Back to top Go down

Re: Review of The Phantom Menace!!!

Post by TheGoodDr on Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:20 am

OK, let me give some examples of things that don’t make sense. Now I’m only going to touch on maybe the first ten to fifteen minutes of TPM as I really don’t have the time or patience to go through the whole film, let alone start on ATOC.

1). – The opening crawl
We are told that TWO Jedi Knights have been dispatched by the Chancellor, when in fact we have ONE Jedi Knight and his Padawan. Why is this an issue? Well, why make a point of creating a scene at the end of the film of the initiation of Obi-Wan to Knighthood when throughout the film we’re under the impression he’s a Jedi Knight already?
And why even tell us that the Chancellor has despatched two Jedi. Why not two Ambassadors? This would have been a better introduction to the film because Lucas actually makes a point of concealing the Jedi in the cockpit of their ship and reveals only the two pilots. That way when the ambassadors are greeted by TC-14, the audience (along with the protocol droid) are (pleasantly) surprised that these representatives are in fact Jedi! The Trade Federation are under the impression that the ambassadors are simply representatives from the Senate, so why ruin it for the audience in the opening crawl that Jedi have been sent on this mission?

2). – Smelling the gas
So when the Nemoidians discover that they have two Jedi aboard their ship, they decide to kill them. Why? Surely murdering two Jedi would raise suspicions with the Chancellor. And we’re even told that the Chancellor confirmed with Palpatine that they did arrive (in a later scene). How can this possibly be a ploy? Palpatine wanted the Jedi killed (immediately). Surely two Jedi disappearing on a diplomatic mission would only attract attention to the Trade Federation.
Anyways, I’ve digressed from the smelly gas.
Nute Gunray orders the killing of the Jedi. To do this, they pump in a visible gas with an odour. How does one smell a gas (as Qui-Gon did), determine what type of gas it is and then not come down with any ill effects?
Now before anyone chimes in with “Well, you can smell natural guess and it that doesn’t make you sick”…..the gas being used by the Nemoidians must be pretty damn potent because less than a minute later, Nute Gunray instructs the Battle Droids to dispose of their remains.
So, for all beings (other than Jedi) this gas is pretty deadly. “They held their breath” you say. To that I respond, “Yeah, but for how long?” “We don’t know because we’re never really told” you reply. The notion that humans can hold their breath for a significant (unknown) amount of time is just plain silly……especially so when later on Naboo the Jedi have to use a breathing apparatus to make a short swim to the Gungan city!
“The they must have used their breathing aids to survive the gas” someone else pipes up. “Now I’m pretty sure they come out of the dining room lightsabers swinging and mouths empty” I retort.
It comes down to plot convenience. Its not convenient for Lucas and the Jedi to have breathing aids. Just like it is not convenient for the Jedi to be locked in the dining room for an hour to ensure their deaths. By having the Jedi hold their breath, we’re supposed to be engaged in a scene with suspense and anxiety. The reality is, we have a situation that makes no real sense.

3). – Out gunning Droidekas
Next we’re introduced to some special looking droids with force shields that pack a pretty powerful punch. So powerful that the only way the Jedi can survive is to run like the proverbial! What’s the issue here? Well, if the Jedi have the ability to run so damn fast to save their skin, why doesn’t Obi-Wan run like the clappers during the (so-called) climatic lightsaber duel with Darth Maul to help Qui-Gon? I’ll tell you why, because it’s not a convenient plot point for him to do so……in fact, its inconvenient for him to do this.

I’m sick of writing, but I think I made some valid points (with the aid of Mr Plinkett). Though, I must admit, I’m pretty sure my own suggestion that the audience shouldn’t have been alerted to the fact that we have two Jedi on board the Republic Cruiser is a good one Wink

TheGoodDr
Lance Corporal in the Kiss Army

Number of posts : 1187
Age : 105
Location : WA
Trading Status : 100
Registration date : 2008-04-23

View user profile http://www.FiguresDirect.com.au

Back to top Go down

Re: Review of The Phantom Menace!!!

Post by bowspearer on Mon Apr 12, 2010 8:52 pm

TheGoodDr wrote:OK, let me give some examples of things that don’t make sense. Now I’m only going to touch on maybe the first ten to fifteen minutes of TPM as I really don’t have the time or patience to go through the whole film, let alone start on ATOC.

And sadly you've failed miserably here, merely demonstratng how over your head the plot for TPM truly went.

TheGoodDr wrote:1). – The opening crawl
We are told that TWO Jedi Knights have been dispatched by the Chancellor, when in fact we have ONE Jedi Knight and his Padawan. Why is this an issue? Well, why make a point of creating a scene at the end of the film of the initiation of Obi-Wan to Knighthood when throughout the film we’re under the impression he’s a Jedi Knight already?
And why even tell us that the Chancellor has despatched two Jedi. Why not two Ambassadors? This would have been a better introduction to the film because Lucas actually makes a point of concealing the Jedi in the cockpit of their ship and reveals only the two pilots.

To begin with there are several rankings within the Jedi Order- padawan, initiate, apprentice, knight, master, but unless you were familiar with the rank distinctions, and most of the general public in that wouldn't have an intimate knowldege of the jedi order- only of the most common kind of jedi they deal with- a Jedi Knight. That really is splitting hairs.

TheGoodDr wrote:That way when the ambassadors are greeted by TC-14, the audience (along with the protocol droid) are (pleasantly) surprised that these representatives are in fact Jedi! The Trade Federation are under the impression that the ambassadors are simply representatives from the Senate, so why ruin it for the audience in the opening crawl that Jedi have been sent on this mission?

2). – Smelling the gas
So when the Nemoidians discover that they have two Jedi aboard their ship, they decide to kill them. Why? Surely murdering two Jedi would raise suspicions with the Chancellor. And we’re even told that the Chancellor confirmed with Palpatine that they did arrive (in a later scene). How can this possibly be a ploy? Palpatine wanted the Jedi killed (immediately).

And this is the open and shut evidence that you clearly missed the point of the first movie. Of course it was a ploy- it always is when you order someone to do something knowing they'll just fail miserably at trying to carry out. And that's just it, the whole thing is that Palpatine uses the Trade Federation attacking his home planet to becom supreme chancellor and has contingencies on top of contingencies to the point where his plan is nothing short of ingenious. This incidentally was what the audience was being made to focus on, not surprise over them being jedi, but the fact that something isn't right- something which Obiwan picks up on, the elusive, pervasive presence of the Dark Side of the Force clouding not only their mission but the very fabric of their way of life. Furthermore, this was hardly out of the ordinary in terms of the role of a Jedi.

TheGoodDr wrote:Surely two Jedi disappearing on a diplomatic mission would only attract attention to the Trade Federation.

And yet this vey kind of thing was always one of the roles Jedi had, as established before the PT in the EU. Furthermore you act like there were maybe a few thousand Jedi if that. To put things in perspective for you, 3 Trillion died in the Yuuzhan Vong War, which took place at a point where the Galaxy had been fully able to recoger from Palpatine's regime, meaning that it's a reasonable indicator to use in determining the scale of the popultion of the Galaxy circa Clone Wars. Now to draw on a comparable conflict, roughly 50-70 million people are estimated to have died in WW2 when the world population was over 2 billion. That as an estimate would place the galactic population at over 12 quadrillion or 12,000,000,000,000,000. Realistically there'd be millions of Jedi in existence if not billions.

Furthermore, the Trade Federation weren't even aware of the fact that the ambassadors were Jedi until it was too late, so again how did this attract attention too early. As the Nemoidians openly admitted, they were sent to bring an end to the blockade.

TheGoodDr wrote:Anyways, I’ve digressed from the smelly gas.
Nute Gunray orders the killing of the Jedi. To do this, they pump in a visible gas with an odour. How does one smell a gas (as Qui-Gon did), determine what type of gas it is and then not come down with any ill effects?
Now before anyone chimes in with “Well, you can smell natural guess and it that doesn’t make you sick”…..the gas being used by the Nemoidians must be pretty damn potent because less than a minute later, Nute Gunray instructs the Battle Droids to dispose of their remains.
So, for all beings (other than Jedi) this gas is pretty deadly. “They held their breath” you say. To that I respond, “Yeah, but for how long?” “We don’t know because we’re never really told” you reply. The notion that humans can hold their breath for a significant (unknown) amount of time is just plain silly……especially so when later on Naboo the Jedi have to use a breathing apparatus to make a short swim to the Gungan city!
“The they must have used their breathing aids to survive the gas” someone else pipes up. “Now I’m pretty sure they come out of the dining room lightsabers swinging and mouths empty” I retort.
It comes down to plot convenience. Its not convenient for Lucas and the Jedi to have breathing aids. Just like it is not convenient for the Jedi to be locked in the dining room for an hour to ensure their deaths. By having the Jedi hold their breath, we’re supposed to be engaged in a scene with suspense and anxiety. The reality is, we have a situation that makes no real sense.

Of course it makes sense. Heck it even happens in the real world. Some schools of martial arts have even developed the ability to slow their metabolism to the point where they can appear to be dead. That's no different to here using the force, only arguably the effects are even more profound being done through the force. So he caught a brief whiff of it and his Jedi trainging kicked in- not seeing the issue here. As for them attacking the battle droids, are you familiar with how heavy lightsabers are for anyone not using the force alone?

If the force is making something heavy and unwieldy seem incredibly lightweight and like an extension of the body, then it's not that much of a stretch for them to be able to take that little oxygen, shut down their metabolic rate and then use that stored oxygen to surprise the droids and get clear of the gas.

As for the breathing aparatus, I'd imagine that using the force would be tiring after a while and considering that the mission was far from over, using the force for extended periods needlessly just would nto be wise. Even if ti doesn't have thaat much of an effect; an intelligent warrior does not needlessly waste energy.

Could the Jedi have swum to the gungan city just holdign their breath- quite possibly, but then why waste energy needlessly when you can just use an artificial gil?

TheGoodDr wrote:3). – Out gunning Droidekas
Next we’re introduced to some special looking droids with force shields that pack a pretty powerful punch. So powerful that the only way the Jedi can survive is to run like the proverbial! What’s the issue here? Well, if the Jedi have the ability to run so damn fast to save their skin, why doesn’t Obi-Wan run like the clappers during the (so-called) climatic lightsaber duel with Darth Maul to help Qui-Gon? I’ll tell you why, because it’s not a convenient plot point for him to do so……in fact, its inconvenient for him to do this.

And yet he does- are you forgetting the minor matter of him falling about 50m and the amount of ground he has to make up.

bowspearer
Kickin' it old skool

Number of posts : 242
Age : 37
Location : Anywhere but here.
Trading Status : 3
Registration date : 2010-01-28

View user profile http://z7.invisionfree.com/Kickin_It_Old_School/index.php?

Back to top Go down

Re: Review of The Phantom Menace!!!

Post by Dabigfella on Tue Apr 13, 2010 1:33 am

As a non biased outside reader, this is an excellent debate, with terrific points from both sides, just bowspearer, maybe be a bit more diplomatic in your delivery mate, as I value gooddr's opinion as much as yours in this topic, and with my mod hat on, I won't lock up, yet, as this is a really good debate, just don't belittle others whose opinion differs to your own.....DBF

Dabigfella
Mr Motu

Number of posts : 2344
Age : 39
Trading Status : 101
Registration date : 2008-02-20

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Review of The Phantom Menace!!!

Post by Sponsored content Today at 4:38 pm


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum